The Daria Hamrah Podcast
Do you want to change or simply improve your life? Take your business or your personal relationships to the next level? Have you ever thought why change is so difficult? Ever wondered how people become successful and we just call them "lucky". The Daria Hamrah Podcast gives you Dr. Hamrah's personal insights and pathways to his successes and what he calls "true happiness". Featuring interviews with some of the most successful entrepreneurs, authors and experts in their field, he shares their insights into what he calls the "Secret of Life".
The Daria Hamrah Podcast
Shaping the Future: Inside the Mind of XM-Satellite Radio Co-founder - Lon Levin
Join us on a captivating journey through the world of space, technology, and entrepreneurship, led by our esteemed guest, the pioneering innovator and co-founder of XM-Satellite Radio, Lon Levin. Lon takes us down memory lane, sharing his experiences from the conception of satellite radio and the challenges overcome to provide high-quality, nationwide audio experiences. Illuminating his path of persistence and innovation, he shares how he convinced General Motors to become the first major automobile manufacturer to include XM-Satellite Radio in their vehicles.
Intriguingly, Lon provides valuable advice for prospective entrepreneurs, revealing the qualities that make an effective CEO and emphasizing the vital role of decisiveness in business. The discussion further escalates as we delve into the wonders of space exploration. Drawing from his experiences with the Defense Business Board, Lockheed Martin, The Planetary Society, Space Foundation, and conversations with Elon Musk, Lon unveils his profound insights on space exploration's potential impact on entrepreneurship and our society.
Lon Levin is President of Sky Seven Ventures (S7V), which invests in, advises and provides executive services for space and other technology businesses. As an entrepreneur and executive, Lon advises, coaches, and mentors CEO and C-Suite teams to build their businesses and meet financial goals by executing plans and adapting to market needs. He brings deep relationships throughout the global space enterprise, including commercial, government, and academic areas.
In the concluding chapters, we reflect on the technological evolution's impact on established companies, the future of the entertainment and music industry, and the importance of embracing failures in entrepreneurship. Filled with riveting stories and lifelong lessons from Lon's extraordinary journey, this episode serves as a testament to the power of curiosity, critical thinking, and relentless determination. So, brace yourself for an episode that's all set to inspire and challenge you to push the boundaries of possibility!
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Hello everyone, welcome to our podcast, the Dari da Hammer podcast, where we dwell into the extraordinary journeys of remarkable people. Our guest today is someone who not only played a crucial part in shaping our present, but also continues to carve our path into the future. I have the pleasure today of hosting Mr Lon Levin, an innovator in the realm of space and technology. Currently, lon is steering the course of tech innovation as a president of Sky7 Ventures. In his role, he shapes budding enterprises, leveraging his decades of experience and deep relationships throughout the global space enterprise. But the journey that led him to here is just as noteworthy.
Daria Hamrah:Co-founding XM-Satellite radio in the early 90s was a significant leap that redefined our audio experiences forever. His career is rich with diverse experiences, from law to high-tech business, and space exploration contributes to his unique perspective. Today, beyond his business endeavors, lon commits his time to various nonprofit roles, with organizations like the Plantary Society and the National Space Society, pushing boundaries into our understanding of space. Now I'm really thrilled to delve into the inspirational journey of Lon. So sit back and grab a cup of coffee and join us as we take you to the journey through the life, career and insights of Lon. There's a lot to uncover. So, lon, let's get started. Welcome.
Lon Levin:Thank you so much, daria. By the way, I'm a tea drinker, so I hope my tea is okay. Oh, fantastic Coffee tea. Drink whatever you want, enjoy the podcast Wonderful.
Daria Hamrah:Well, I drink both. I drink both coffee and tea, so I would say it's 50-50 with me. So I'm kind of an odd one. I can party with both groups. I just am bipartisan, you know, being in DC.
Daria Hamrah:So, lon, we're going to really deep dive into your story because I think it's very inspirational at many levels, all the way from your past to your present. But just for the audience, just so they can connect with you without getting too technical. Now, you're the co-founder of XM Radio and most of us had no XM Radio from Sirius XM. And just for those of you who don't know, xm Radio or Sirius XM now is a satellite radio and I was shocked when I talked to you, when I noticed and realized that you basically invented it in the early 90s.
Daria Hamrah:I was actually a college student in the early 90s and I really thought XM Radio was something from the 2000s and that's what really surprised me. So take me into, let's go quickly back into that time and just tell us to the audience first of all what satellite radio actually is, how it functions, very briefly, without getting too geeky, and then take us just back in time and walk us through how you one day you sat in your chair and you said you know, radio sucks. We need to do better and let's just connect to say a satellite and just walk us through it very quickly for the audience to connect.
Lon Levin:Absolutely. And again, thank you so much for this chance just to talk with you so very quickly with regard to satellite radio. Satellite radio is a technical service that provides by the way, it's always been the same plan overwhelming choice, great quality, and it's ubiquitous it covers the entire continent of the United States. The only way to really do that is to have a satellite, which is essentially a very, very large antenna in the sky covering the continent, in order to provide quality service, and if it's particularly its audio, you need to make sure that the listener never, never, loses signal. So how do we do that?
Lon Levin:Well, we have two satellites so that they're both looking at from two different angles. To make sure that they strike your car, that's on the road, where you're not in a city. When you're in a city, there's a third transmission and those are the terrestrial repeaters, because sometimes you're going to go behind the building. No more satellite. But you've got to get the signal because, as we found out with audio service, people do not tolerate loss of signal. You could not tolerate it more if it's video, if you're a stimulus going on coming at you, but audio, you either get a full signal, otherwise you'll listen. So the reality is is that XM? And now Serious XM. They cover 99.3% of all the surface of the continent, essentially, or at least, continental United States, most of, I should say most of, canada, but a lot of Canada and then a lot of Mexico.
Daria Hamrah:Now, every innovation starts with an idea, right? So I know ideas for those entrepreneurs on the audience. Ideas pop up in our head all the time, but to me, when I observe people like you and all these innovators, that really changed the way we live today is that they had an idea that actually solved the problem, so they didn't try to retrofit a problem to an idea. They didn't try to create a problem, so it matches that idea. And I see a lot of innovations fail because of that reason. But was that like a process that led you to that innovation? Or literally, you were like me in a shower one day and you're like, oh my God, I have an idea Like how did that evolve? Were you working on something else?
Lon Levin:And then you kind of Well, it wasn't quite like a revelation in a shower, but it was a revelation, and you had asked me that in the previous question, in the same question. And that is how did I get there? How did the idea come about? Well, you're right, usually ideas that succeed are dealing with current problems that we have, but people aren't seeing the solution just yet. So I was both a musician.
Lon Levin:Three things, maybe four things, great confluence of events. I'm a musician, so I love music. I'm very eclectic in my musical tastes. Two, I loved radio as a child. Now I'm a bit older than you are, and there was a time when FM radio was talking to a whole generation. It was cool, it was hip, it was bringing music to everybody and it was relatively more eclectic. So that's two things. The third thing is that I was a satellite guy. I'm in the satellite business, I'm in the space business. I loved it. It was my career. I'm an entrepreneurial satellite company. It's doing mobile satellite services, the precursor to the Iridium's of the world today, and so I was there. And then, fourth, things were in the air. In other words, what was in the air, literally and figuratively? There was satellite television. From those days it was only five channels before we had the two major ones in the United States and in Europe, and all that we had hundreds of channels, all right. So everything was there.
Lon Levin:And, as you point out, this is 1992, 1991, 1992. So radio sucks, quality is not very good. What's going on here? Why? What's the problem here? And this was the epiphany, when I began to understand that and think about it. I've always been somewhat entrepreneurial, just like yourself. How do we solve problems? You see the problem, there's got to be a solution here. So in this case I had all the skills and I had the knowledge at the right place, right time. And I'm thinking to myself why does radio suck as bad as it does? And the word suck is an understanding 20 minutes of commercials. Every station has the same playlist, which is essentially adult-oriented rock.
Lon Levin:There were very few stations catering to individual tastes, whether it was Hispanic or R&B or classical or anything you can. You know it's hard to believe, but just wasn't available. Okay, so the reason is because there were all these different owners, period, and every owner was after the same audience, because it was the biggest audience, it was the audience that was going to pay the money 20 minutes worth of commercials, you better play a song that's going to grab you years. So everyone's playing Born to Run by Bruce Springsteen. You know it covers an awful lot of ground and everyone loves it. There were other songs like that in those days, and Michael Jackson was another one beat it. I mean just everyone would listen to it. You'd stop them listen to it and you had no choice. And if you could spin the dial and you go to another Born to Run, you'd listen to it. It was so stupid. But that's why radio is so bad, because there were so many different owners.
Daria Hamrah:I really do remember those days. So everything you're telling me, I'm getting flashbacks.
Lon Levin:Right, you're starting to sweat, feeling really miserable because you're in a car and it sucks, so then, okay, so how do you fix that? Well, if you could own a whole market, if you owned every radio station in a market, what would you do? You would count a program, because now your goal is just to get as many years always getting many years, but this time you want one set of years for contemporary adult rock, one set of years for R&B, and you would just figure out what would be the 30 best channels that people would be interested in. You probably have an NPR channel, maybe another news channel, sports, I mean, there are always ideas and they're all on XM now, but in those days it just didn't exist. Okay, so then how do you do that? Well, how do you build a business around it? What kind of infrastructure do you need?
Lon Levin:I'm a satellite guy. All you got to do now and I don't want to make it sound like what you got to do is have an idea that it happens. But you know, if you can get antenna high enough, have enough capacity to have 50 channels, maybe, maybe, build a radios and all that, maybe, maybe, maybe. If you could do all this, you could have a business and you can aggregate enough customers throughout each of the markets that you could have a revenue stream and ultimately have some kind of cash flow payback and ultimately be profitable. That was the idea and it all came from the radio sucked. If you control a market, you would count a program and have all these channels, and out of that was born the idea of let's have satellite radio.
Lon Levin:I don't know if it's to get there, but that was the idea. And, by the way, what's cool about the idea is that it was always the same fundamental idea. Of course there were twists and turns all along, but at the end of the day there's overwhelming choice, great quality and ubiquitous coverage which everyone loved and that's why people bought it. And, by the way, I want to point out was the we're proud of this the fastest growing audio product. It's first year of introduction ever. Don't get me wrong. There are more FMAM radios, there are more iPods in those days and more CD players eventually. But for its time, from zero to 60 in the first year the largest growing audio product ever. It still holds the record for that Because it was such a hunger for it. Everyone wanted it.
Daria Hamrah:Yes, and so what was from the time of the idea to the time of the implementation, meaning it going actually live? How long did it take? Now, first of all, when did it go actually live on air for the first time?
Lon Levin:2001. It was in prototype for 2001. Like I had the first radio in March or April, I was listening to it, but it went into the market in early November, late October, early November of 2001. 2001.
Daria Hamrah:It started in 1992. Wow, so it took almost 10 years, almost 10 years. Weren't you worried during those 10 years that someone is going to come up with something else and then all those 10 years are going to go to waste, like were you thinking about that?
Lon Levin:No, the only thing I was thinking about good, very good question. My only feeling during that whole time that I remember was that I was sometimes feeling sad that someone else was going to do it. I knew it was going to happen. I knew it from the first time. We really thought about it and I worked with others to develop business plans and then work on the technology, keep on sharing the idea. You know you're not talking about how do you get to be an entrepreneur and all that. You can talk about that some more. But throughout that whole process, the 10 years, I knew it was going to happen, but I was feeling bad sometimes that it may not be me and my XM team you can call it XM in those days, but you know that team may not have the chance to do it. There ended up being three other groups that were also buying to do this in the United States and we just ended up being the one that not only got there first but in nine months earlier than series.
Daria Hamrah:Now, just to that point, can you share one major obstacle that you faced during the formation of XM radio? And, just for the entrepreneurs in the audience and sweet, sweet people, how did you manage to overcome it? Because you know, we all know, that whenever you have a grandiose idea as an innovator and entrepreneur, you approach it with such conviction because you feel you're the only one that truly sees the future and you just have to be able to inspire not just the team, but the investors, the people. I mean so many things. There's almost this weight on your shoulder. Can you walk us through one of those major obstacles in those nine years from 92 to 2001? And how did you manage to overcome it? And what was like the? Was there a pivotal moment, you know, if you remember, yeah, I do I actually.
Lon Levin:My memories of all this are rather vivid. I don't know if I can tell you the exact date, but I still only had the feelings. It was extraordinary, exciting time to have been part of. It was a wonderful part of my career. So I'm going to hit upon. There are a number of things like. There was a technical challenge, for example, how to get the antenna small enough, and those kind of things are satellite issues. But but let me hit upon one that you already talked about, which is just convincing people, convincing the market, convincing investors, convincing others to join. I mean the whole, convincing that they see the vision that the original people had, including myself who was leading. And so just imagine that someone comes to you or someone came to you in those days and said I got a new idea for radio At those days, even though people thought that radio is not very good, it was ubiquitous, I mean, in their minds, and everyone said we've been up radio here, why?
Lon Levin:And also radio sort of not the number one medium, it was always more, you know, video and all that. So people just thought there was enough radio, and we will talk about that a little more in a second I just want to is then imagine going to New York City and this is the place where I speak as a New Yorker, by the way where you think you have everything. And what do I need more radio for? We have all the radio we could possibly want. Let me tell you a little anecdote that I learned as I was doing this in New York, trying to raise money and convince investors, because when I tell you the rest of the story with investors, they look on. This is never going to happen. Because in New York City, because everyone thinks they have everything, New York was one of the least, was one of the slowest adopters of mobile mobile phones in Northern Hemisphere.
Daria Hamrah:What was the reason for that?
Lon Levin:Well, it was the same reason why. There's another city that was the greatest adopter, was the fastest adopter of it will take that city a second. You'll make it through that I'm speaking.
Daria Hamrah:Let me guess before you say it. I'm just.
Lon Levin:North America, north America, okay, all right, so you think about it as I'm speaking.
Lon Levin:So in New York and I grew up in New York, I grew up in the city you used to be able to go into the deli and then get the phone.
Lon Levin:And then, you know, and you were always able to get a phone really quickly, because it was such a dense area that your notion that you needed a phone immediately just wasn't there, and so it was so hard for that market to adopt mobile phones, as opposed to other places which you can imagine did need more phone.
Lon Levin:So it was that same exact attitude and once I found out about that I realized, you know, you got to sort of educate people that there's a whole country out there that may need more radio, even though youth they do have enough here, as reality is they did have an Hispanic channel in New York. They did have a classical music channel. So you use those as examples, but it was so shocking to find out in those days there were only 10 classical channels in the United States and Hispanic made it even less. They know it's such a large population and then serving the African-American community and all that. I mean it was amazing how we just worried doing that and but in New York you thought you were, and so now and I hope you're thinking about with North American City, I am.
Lon Levin:Okay, well, I'm gonna give you a chance. Then I'm gonna see if you got.
Daria Hamrah:I, you know, just a wild guess. I would say San Francisco, the Bay Area.
Lon Levin:Okay, I'll give you another clue. It's not a US city, North America, though.
Daria Hamrah:Oh, okay, Then I would say Toronto no okay, Mexico City.
Lon Levin:The reason why is because Mexico City had such bad terrestrial infrastructure that they just jumped it. And they all had mobile phones, Because that was their answer. I talk about solving a problem. I wish I had that franchise that you know. It just jumped everything, Similar to where you actually XM, where you jumped everything and billion more dollars and there's I forget the name of the billionaire, but he just made a billionaire almost overnight. Who invested in it and it's just an amazing story, and that's an example of it was stopped. You know those phones. And well, Mexico did. Okay.
Lon Levin:So, getting back to New York, so imagine you're talking to these investors. Already, they think that everything's going to possibly need an email, and then you say, well, here's your story. We're going to have to build a satellite system. How much is it going to cost? Oh, over a billion dollars, $19.90. Okay, Then you say, oh, and also, by the way, you've got to do all this programming, I'm going to do all this marketing and all kind of stuff. I'm going to get all the best buys. You have to get in the cars. Oh, and, by the way, people are going to have to take the existing radio in their car and take it out and they're like who's going to do this? We have enough radio. And you say to them oh, by the way, they're going to pay for it. It's like their heads would explode. And that was the story, and that was the only way to make the dollars, and we had ideas of having an advertising model, but that was the story. So every time that it's going to cost us a lot of money, you've got to build this whole infrastructure out nationwide. You've got to launch your satellites risky enough, and then you tell them about yanking the radios off and then, when you ice the cake with, ask them if they're going to pay for it, they pretty much throw you out of the office.
Lon Levin:But we kept on doing it. We kept on doing it. And then one of the things we talked about is how did I sort of know we actually got somewhere? It's when general motors the general motors decide to invest and they were willing even though not in the beginning, it wasn't GM cars for three years. It's really when they so.
Lon Levin:You know, in America I don't think that we could have to be small enough to be in a car. We could take three years. You want to see that money invest and once that happened, it was like that was the defining moment. Now others had invested in us, but it wasn't a lot of money. It was when general motors came in. That's when we went public. That's when a lot more money was pouring in and then people were willing to invest. The other good thing, and this is just about being right place at right time it was during the internet boom, and during the internet boom, everyone was investing in everything and people were looking for investments. People were making a lot of money. They needed to move their money and we just benefited from that general enthusiasm and so what do you think out of all companies, gm invested in it.
Daria Hamrah:What to them was? Did they ever say it? What to them was different? How did they see that in XM radio? What others didn't in your opinion? Or maybe they even verbalized it?
Lon Levin:Well, actually they did one and two Ford. Once GM did their deal, ford was now looking at Syriac, and so they had a match. Look, these were the days when cars were not the amazing computer gadgets that they are today. Yet they were on the verge of that. They're getting closer, they're in these screens or anything. But they knew that in order to distinguish themselves, and also there was all these other foreign competitors coming on real strong Toyota and Honda and all that and so they needed to differentiate themselves. They needed to have a cool thing in the car and they were convinced of the vision. And once they were convinced of the vision and, by the way, they would tell us and that their vision was right and that people were buying GM cars just to get XM radio, but it was an exclusive product that you can only get on GM.
Daria Hamrah:Makes no sense.
Lon Levin:Makes no sense, and they had their own personal vision, personal or corporate vision and good for them for having that and realizing that that would differentiate. They had something called OnStar, so they sort of knew satellite, yeah, you press the button and if you were in trouble, rescue you, and if someone talked to you, and so they were already playing with that kind of idea and mobile technology was, it wasn't quite there yet, but still they understood it. And so by the time this was like 1997, they were looking for the next best thing that they could put in their cars to differentiate themselves. And it worked For a while. They were the only one, and eventually others joined, but they were the only one for a while.
Daria Hamrah:You know, I think with every amazing technology that evolves, I think it needs the right timing to introduce it to the public and then also the right time, like in case of GM, they wanted to have a new car with Buzz that brings in some Buzz, and here comes XM radio, satellite radio, something that no one has, and then being worried about the competition, like Ford bringing on one, and I think a lot of these. I remember when Apple car came out I literally decided to buy my car because it was one of the first one that Apple car integrated. Because I love technology. I think the utility aspect of technology. It saves us so much time, it's safe, it makes everything safer. And I think for a user, sometimes new technology, if it's too new, it's hard to wrap their head around it and they might think that I really don't need. What do I need that for? I already have radio. Because they don't understand the advantages and the benefit new technology brings to them.
Daria Hamrah:What would you say as someone that is consulting businesses around entrepreneurs? They come with these grandiose ideas and they're basically let's just say they're so enthusiastic about their idea that they don't necessarily realize that they may or may not be any use for it, but they fall in love, let's say, with their invention and you, as an outsider, you look at it and you have to break it to them. How do you do that? And at which point do you say maybe I'm wrong, Maybe they're right? Where do you draw that line? Because we all are biased, based on our opinions and based on our experiences, and there's always stuff that we don't know, that we don't know. How do you draw the line when you consult these entrepreneurs, innovators and these new companies?
Lon Levin:Which is what you do today, right? Well, it's part of what I do. I also invest, but I also help companies manage their new technologies. To some extent I'm a consultant, but sometimes I'm actually part of management, and they pay sky-set adventures with my company as well as some of my best OK, so anyway, and also by the way, it went dormant for a while, I think we saw more resume with the Lockheed as an in-house entrepreneur, where I faced these same exact questions.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, we're going to get to that.
Lon Levin:What technology made sense, what technology didn't make sense. And now I'm doing it on the outside, and it was the same. So every person, let me tell you how I start. The people will ask me sometimes and someone else right inside whether to invest or. You're not necessarily in line, but I'll tell you. So if you came to me and you said to me Lon, I hear about this idea, what do you think?
Lon Levin:The first thing I'm going to say is I am the last person to ever pour cold water and say this idea is not going to work Because, a I may not know enough and B I've certainly had that in my life way too much. I've had plenty of ideas that people questioned, and they questioned out of ignorance or out of lack of patience, or they just wouldn't have time a day, and so I'm the last one who's going to ever do that. I just won't do it. I'll never get to the point of saying this isn't going to work. Now I do get to the point of I may not work with you, I may not invest in you, but I'll always let down everybody easy and also I'll give them thoughts about what I think they need to do. But I'm not debating your question and I'll tell you very specifically what I do if it's an idea that just doesn't make sense.
Lon Levin:However, for the ideas that I just don't know yet and I need to test them let me tell you the things that I look for. First, I just want to hear their story. I want to see if it hangs together. Two, I'm always looking for third party validators. Who else agrees and sees your vision that is separate from you? In our case, we just talked about general motors. That was really the validator. We had plenty along the way, but this was the big one.
Lon Levin:Everyone else had a vested interest. Very careful if you lived or died. They wanted to live is a benefit of that. Who is like that? Often there are these technologies that the government may be interested in. It's all right, the government's interest is good. The government is putting a lot of bets there. I want to know who else sees this as a good bet. Then I'm interested in who else is invested in them.
Lon Levin:Then I want to see the business plan and it really comes down to everybody. There are three things that any investor or booty leak cares about. It's the technology the validator is really worth it, we've planned all that. And then it's the business plan. It's hanging together. What do you care if it's a little break even and all that? And then it's the management team. Either experience or they get it Enthusiasm I see a lot of that.
Lon Levin:What I want to hear is are they good at their story? Can they tell their story really well? Because, in fact, that's one of the skills you must have if you've got to be an entrepreneur, because you've got to raise money and you've got to keep on telling the story over and over and over. It's almost like a player or a standard company act. You're doing it over and over and over again and you're perfected. You're never perfected, but you get really close. And so it's those three things that I'm always looking for, and if any one of them doesn't exist and, by the way, you can always compensate for the business plan and the management you can always change those. The technology is not going to work, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't hang together or whatever. And that's hard for anybody, because unless you're a super expert in that particular field, how do you really know? All right, so I think I've answered the question. I hope I have.
Daria Hamrah:Yes, so you answered part of it. The other thing that I'm curious about is that how do you you're also on the management team on some business ventures you invest with them? How do you decide what to invest in? Do you go by just diversification, or do you invest in businesses that you obviously you believe in? But how much do you know of those businesses? Do you only invest in businesses and technologies that you understand, or do you go beyond that? And if so, how do you make that decision? Is it just you just look at the sheets, you look at the books, you look at the market, you look at validation, like you said, or is there something else? Do you also have look into the future vision of whoever that business or entrepreneur is?
Lon Levin:I do have to feel the vision like instinctually. But to answer your question, first of all, what SkySend Ventures is, which is relatively small fund. It's not really about diversification. My personal wealth is diversified, so this is more my business. And how do I? Right now it's my business. I've been around a long time.
Lon Levin:I told you went over a little, although it maintains investments, and then it's back again. Ok. But the point is is to ask you a question. So what do you look at? So I think it's the same question, as I already said. I said I want to see a third part of validation. I really want to know.
Lon Levin:The second thing I look at as an investor and or something's going to work for them and devote some considerable time is when does this go? Cash flow break even. The reason why that's really fundamental to me is because I want to know when you're going to stop needing money, and then it's the money that you're making that will keep you going. We'll raise more money once we get them, once you're effectively in the black, and things like that. So I'm always looking for that time, I understand, and then, while I do is, I'll go back in history and see how long have you been making money. I mean, where are we now? I always want to understand that.
Lon Levin:With regards to the management, I do want to see their backgrounds, I do want to get a sense of them, but I'm OK if they're younger and I'm around, I'm OK. I'm always looking to make sure that they have a really good financial person. Age doesn't really bother me. I want to point out I was very young and people gave me enormous opportunity when I was young. I was young when I was still at some radio and even then I was part of other entrepreneurial ventures and I've always lived that way, no matter what. Now, as I'm much older, age just isn't the issue. The issue is people's abilities, their enthusiasm and then their emotional, my sense of their emotional stability. I don't mean that. I just mean it does take a kind of person to put up with the risks that the entrepreneurial life brings.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, so based on, obviously you have a lot of experience, like close back, what four decades and what do you believe is the most significant, I guess, attribute to a CEO or leader? That a leader should have to effectively guide their team along that journey and meet the company's financial goals at the same time, knowing that there is going to be ups and downs, like in your case. It took nine years and when you look at companies now that you're consulting are part of how do you navigate that as a CEO? What attributes should you have? Because to me, a CEO is mainly a leader. It's like a I don't know like a coach, doesn't necessarily operate at all aspects, but oversees things and makes sure that the company's performance is and advance is within the vision of the company or the product. Can you give us a little insight? What, in your opinion, is the most important attribute?
Lon Levin:So this is something that I do teach entrepreneurship, actually worldwide, and I have been in different stages throughout the world and I love it. It's my favorite thing, and the older I get, the more I love the mentor and talk to other people who are entrepreneurs and a lot of people I have. I have dozens of people who have me on speed dial and they call me. One just called me today and I had her challenges, all right. So anyway, I tell you this because this is what I start with with every one of my talks and I say if you remember anything from this talk, just remember this and then we'll. Everything else is gravy. I hope you'll learn something. So and I was taught this actually by my uncle, who was his own kind of entrepreneur in the New York City, who was an attorney in New York, had a small routine practice but did well in the industry, all right. So I'd say there are three stages in every career. The first stage is analysis, the second stage is judgment and the third stage is decisiveness. And the quicker you get to decisiveness and learn how to be a decision maker, the faster your career will grow. Now just to be in CEO, but to be in when you graduate from school, when you are taught skills in school, or if you're hired for a new job or whatever. You better be good at analyzing. That's why the people are hiring you. You can analyze the problem, whatever that field of endeavor you're entering into, very soon. Thereafter, months, weeks, maybe your boss is going to say, hey, what do you think? And that's when judgment comes in and you can say well, boss, I think we should do this. You're not on the line. You're showing your new analytical skills and then you're showing that you can synthesize and you can judge everything. And then here's my judgment. Hopefully you're articulate. You know all that.
Lon Levin:A lot of people, for a lot of reasons, some of them good, your family, you like, your job, whatever Stay in the judgment world. That was why they made me make the decision. But what they're not learning yet is what is essentially to be the definition of a CEO, which is someone who makes decisions with imperfect information, because it's the people who can do that and do it well and do it relatively fast and, by the way, I can, course, correct if it was the wrong decision and own the decision. Those are the people who rise the fastest, who stay in leadership roles and, by the way, sometimes they get nailed. They made the wrong decisions and then you know but they take it. I mean it was, they own it, and so that's my point.
Lon Levin:My point is the reason why it's not just very decisive, because the reality is you don't have all the resources that you need, but you have to move fast and you have to. You can't just sit there and worry and say, if I do this, if I do that, you just got to move forward and see if it works. And then there's skills, that learning how to do that, and incremental risk and all that. Yeah, good.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, I love that answer because I 100% agree. And one of the things to that I don't know what percentage you feel is I call it gut feeling, you know, but gut feeling is based on a lot of subconscious decision making, based on a lot of information that your brain processes right. So, in your opinion, how much of a CEO's decision is just gut feeling and how much is pure analysis of data? You know, when you make a decision, you know you have to make a decision based on set of information. What percentage of that is gut feeling and what percentage of that is true data?
Lon Levin:I don't know if I can give a precise answer, but I put. Your question is a very good one, and that is essentially the question is do you include both in it? And the answer is I.
Daria Hamrah:Well, you have to. You don't have complete information.
Lon Levin:Right, you have to. So what you have to do is, at least, okay, I'll do it. I mean, I will always get all the information that I think is achievable, and if I don't have all, I'll ask another person and say, guys, you have, but on the other hand, I know the clock is ticking and so I'll always give myself somewhat of a deadline. I can always violate my deadline, but I always want, and I'll tell everybody that, look, we need to make this decision today because we just have to move forward. And you can always say, look, the information is coming in, let's do it, okay.
Lon Levin:So you know, I guess it changes. It changes in variable to how much data that you have. So it's always going to be data driven, all right. But the problem or the challenge always is is that data driven? It will be so nice if the world had all the data that you need and then all you have to do is make. But then it's not making it at some level. If we could all do that, maybe there wouldn't be any more businesses and risks and all the things that are taking place anyway. But let's put that aside to answer the very simple question Get as much data as I possibly can with the time that I have and then just make a decision.
Lon Levin:And then that's the gut part. It's like, based on everything that I know and you do call it gut, you know it's also you have relatively good judgment, you're a smart person, you are a listener, you see the vision, you know, you think clearly, you're not impaired. I know these other things. So that's how I look at it as much data as you possibly can and in fact sometimes it comes in a decision making. I know what decision I want, like my gut level, from the first day. I embark on it and making a decision, and then I'm always flexible in those times of data gathering to keep on going back. I'm always listening to myself. Well, no, actually we thought that that's what we're doing. And then also I talk to people too. I try to be alone, but at the end of the day it's very lonely. I mean, you've got to make a decision and it's your decision, not a boss.
Daria Hamrah:Now, within the same context, can you think of one of the biggest mistakes you ever made? You know, making one of these decisions and then ended up being a big mistake. Can you think of one? And what do you think you learned from that and are you applying that and how do you applying that experience currently or thereafter?
Lon Levin:I want to be careful about big mistakes. I was like I came to mind I didn't think about one today.
Daria Hamrah:And it was a person or failure like something big.
Lon Levin:It was a personnel one and I don't want to. Okay, so, yes, I can. Actually there was, there was one. It's more of a corporate one. Okay, I'd rather I wasn't the decision maker, but I was a senior executive. And so someone once said to me which I think is another, another aphorism that brings true with me, and that is that the cardinal sin in business is to be right and not prevail. Okay, and so that's where I imagine I've made some mistakes, where I wish, as a senior executive of which I have been since the early night of a partner law firm before, but I was at a senior executive in 1990s, as an example of being a young person being given a lot of responsibility, and I remember believing that we were doing a satellite business for the American mobile satellite.
Lon Levin:The vision originally was radio to a talking, but data was coming up and we thought that that was the future. Some of us did. But the trouble was the business plan was wedded to the talk, because talk in those days there was more information and it required more capacity. And if all you were doing is selling capacity, you could sell a lot more if you could actually get the voice customers. But then there was those of us who said no, the data business is going to boom, you'll get there. But the trouble is we sold Wall Street on the voice stuff. I understood all the challenges, but I was the voice of we have to do data, we have to do data, and I wish we would have prevailed.
Lon Levin:Going back to the cardinal sin, you know, and we they're the small, smaller group of us and we all could challenge the CEO, but you know, sooner or later you can't challenge the CEO, and he already made his decision and, for that matter. So he thought the board made a decision and, for that matter, the investors made a decision, and so we had to keep on going, even though we knew who was deep in this business and saw the numbers, that it was the data business that was going to drive this. And the reality is, I believe the company still would be strong If we would have done that and, lo and behold, the future is more data driven anyway in the salad business. I hope that's the story that is happening.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, that was a great answer and great advice. You know, people are especially entrepreneurs Because we are too scared of making a decision, because we're scared of making a mistake and not realizing make mistakes are part of the story. I mean, no one succeeds without making mistakes and you know, it's not about making mistakes or not making mistakes, it's about what we learn from them and how we can apply that knowledge into the future. Because, you know, no one started walking when they fell. You know. You know from day one. You know we all started crawling at some point.
Lon Levin:We can just talk about that a bit more. So what I always explain is that people think that entrepreneurs and others take enormous risks. It's not about taking enormous risks. It's about taking risks, learning how to manage risks. Those are the great entrepreneurs, and so what I tell people is that what your real skill has to be after you make your decision you clearly take your risk because it's based on imperfect information is that managing your risk? And that is are you managing the decision you made, the risk you took, and you got to get good at it, keep on looking at it, manage it and then and so, in the case of the ones I just gave you, they weren't managing their risk anymore. They were spending hundreds of millions of dollars on this voice thing when people knew that maybe that wasn't the right thing, but they couldn't correct. They were unable to correct.
Lon Levin:And it happens a lot in business, where people raise money. They tell a story. They can't change the story. Understand it right? Wait a minute. You're changing the story. I just invested in this. I know it wants to face that, but you know, sometimes you better face that otherwise, and I mean that's an enormous black and white risk. Then there's a smaller, day to day managing your decisions kind of risk.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, it's like knowing when to cut your losses and when to move on and when to stick with it.
Lon Levin:Exactly, that's another way of saying it.
Daria Hamrah:That's the analysis part, and then between the analysis, the judgment, the decisiveness, everything you already said. That's, I think, what makes a good CEO and leader or executive to understand that, understanding that there are pressures from shareholders or investors etc. And I think that's what crushes a lot of businesses and I feel the larger business get, the more difficult I feel it becomes to navigate those waters, you know, because the pressure gets on.
Lon Levin:In fact, that is the challenge of large businesses. They're making a lot of money, they got a great model, but the future is coming, and well, they either manage through it or they don't, and you and I have lived long enough to know that various companies that we've seen come and go, that were giants and then they've gone away.
Daria Hamrah:So let's switch the gears a little bit into space. You know, being a satellite guy, like you say yourself, you know you've been involved with the Planetary Society, the National Space Society and such, would you share some of your thoughts on the current state of space exploration? You know there is I see a lot of these videos going on on social media claiming we never landed on the moon, like we didn't even have the technology, like we don't even have the technology today to land. There's so many fake news in regards to space exploration going on Now, first of all, can you clarify that for us? You know being the expert in space and such. And then also, how do you think the current state of space exploration is going to impact the next generation of entrepreneurs, whether it is in the space business or in other businesses? Like you know, you took space to radio, for example.
Lon Levin:So, first, with regard to people's disbelief of space, it is when does that?
Daria Hamrah:come from.
Lon Levin:I mean, we're trying to psychoanalyze human remaster this thing. We're part of our fellow human beings and why do some believe in conspiracy theories and hoaxes and all that? I don't know.
Daria Hamrah:Because there's a large number, based on the studies, like 47 or 48%, believe we never landed on the moon and look, you are a man of science yourself, right?
Lon Levin:You know that there are those who are nuts, and the good news is the scientists seem to be winning still, and the people who use science to event the world are doing okay still, as well as the people who landed on the moon. I think that people it's funny, those are the same people. I mean you'd ask them, do you believe in rockets? Do you believe? They would say, enter a ballistic missile that can go around the world, halfway around the world, and blow up something it's pretty much the same thing that can go straight up and land on this body that we see. So where it's coming from? I think it's more minds that are not as critical thinkers as we need. I'm sorry that more human beings are not critical thinkers.
Lon Levin:I think that's a loss in our society, and I think people need to fill their brains up with something. I think it comes from many where it comes from. We're not developing as many critical thinkers as we should, and those people who have the same brains that we do well, they'll be speaking. They're using it to fill in gaps and then sometimes the gaps are based on nothing but what they say and, by the way, it's not a cool idea that it was a hoax.
Lon Levin:Sure, of course, Movies movies are made of this stuff. So anyway, but I assure you, I'm sure you and I could spend time proving that it's not a hoax, including there are things on the move that we left there.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, that only could have got there. Hopefully not trash. Well, unfortunately it is.
Lon Levin:It is kind of, but it's. You know, yeah, it is trash.
Daria Hamrah:I mean, some flag is not trash, but yeah, the vehicle, you're not going to use the vehicle again you know, yeah, yeah, I know, right, like I remember I was, you know, I went to University of Mines in Germany and the Max Plank Institute there helped with the Mars mission. And, by the way, a good friend of mine. Rest in Peace, feroz Naderi. He just passed last month, as you might know, from complications after an accident he had.
Lon Levin:So you know, yeah.
Daria Hamrah:So I know you also worked on those missions working during your time and you know how did you. How was your involvement with Lockheed Martin and the department? Did you also work part of the Department of Defense, or tell me, I mean.
Lon Levin:I was separate from Lockheed Martin. I was on what was known as the Defense Business Board.
Daria Hamrah:Yes.
Lon Levin:The Defense Business Board. They have three major boards and they have a fourth one now, but in my day it was three. They have a science board that tells the department about science, but we were first directed to the Secretary of Defense. Then there was the policy board the policy, and then the latest one. The newest one was business and we just told Secretary of Defense through our group it was a board of 20, you know best business practices that maybe they would consider applying.
Lon Levin:It was one of our experience because we saw the upper echelon of what's going on in the defense enterprise. We'll call it, and it was always made up of people, very nonpartisan, who was wonderfully nonpartisan. It just was. We want our Defense Department to be the best so that we can have the safest environment for our warfighters, as well as be the most effective so we can keep the peace throughout the world, and so the board was.
Lon Levin:And what I came to learn I just in a nutshell one of the military leaders described this as what's great about you guys is that everybody asks the hard question what you can give the hard answers, because this really isn't your job. You're just doing this as volunteers and patriots and, by the way we can ignore your advice. You know it doesn't don't listen to you and so we would do these various reports on everything you can imagine and all the best business practices, and it was eye-opening to see how difficult it is to run that organization. You know, when there is a horrible conflict, when there's a war, whatever we get really efficient, but when there's not, it's a larger organization, it has a challenge of efficiency and it just keeps on growing. And, that being said, it's still amazing that it's so effective in what it fundamentally has to do with the protective. So it was a great experience to have worked there.
Lon Levin:And Lockheed Martin you asked about that. Well, I was more part of the civilian. I was somewhat part of the whole government side, but mostly part of the civilian side with Lockheed Martin and, in particular, I was asked to be an entrepreneur in residence and run an entrepreneurial company that was commercial oriented and meaning we're trying to just sell satellites and sell services to different other commercial companies worldwide. It was an aspect that had a government piece and a defense piece, but most of it was commercial and it was a wonderful experience. It's an amazing company as far as just the amount of innovation that goes on there and how important they are as a defense company, but my focus was civilian space.
Daria Hamrah:I see so gotcha.
Daria Hamrah:But I know this topic always comes up. I know there is a part of terrestrial defense, but also extraterrestrial exploration, one of the topics actually. I heard Elon Musk was asked that question if he believes that there is ever been or will be extraterrestrial life or contact and people talking about oh, there's so much evidence. The government is hiding it. Of course, even if there was, I know you wouldn't be able to talk about it, but I think what he said is something prayer phrasing. He said if there had been such a thing, we would have already known. And what else did he said? I think he said that either there is extraterrestrial life and if there is, it's going to be all around or there is none, which would be kind of sad if there was none. That means we're the only life in the universe and which is kind of unbelievable. But if it were to be true, it would be kind of scary. Then we really have to take care of this universe, because then we're it.
Lon Levin:So what is your take on it? So first, because of the work that I do, I hear everything and I know all these personalities, including Elon. My closest colleagues are the scientists, in particular on the Planetary Society. There's a reason why people are scientists and all that, and there are plenty of theories and all that. But what I have been essentially trained by my science friends, who are much better critical thinkers than myself we just don't know. And you just have to be able to say we don't know.
Lon Levin:A lot of what Elon just said is hypothetical. I understand the logic train that he stated. It makes sense and, by the way, I believe that people think we're going to the moon have their own logic train. I'm not comparing that, I'm just saying that everyone has their logic, of course, but you have to be willing to say well, what evidence again, you're a man of science, what evidence do we have that there is extra treachery? And I don't know if you're right, but I really knew I would be able to tell you. Anyway, I had a friend of mine who said, if I knew, I'd have to bore you to death.
Lon Levin:But the fact is, is that as I get down, we don't know. But here's the thing and this was so exciting about what we're doing these days is that we really are still just trying to answer two basic questions, and this is from the time we started thinking as human beings. Two questions Are we alone and where we come from? And we still don't know for sure. Clearly, having a James Webb telescope and the Fort Huckle telescope and then coming up with this big bang theory is so exciting to at least know. Well, we can at least peer back to that moment in time, but before that I don't really know. There are just theories about that. No hypotheses, probably not even theory. But to answer the question, what I will always tell anybody and this goes back to the CEO thing that is no, where's the data?
Daria Hamrah:What if there is data but we don't know how to interpret it? Or what is the current state of our technologies for a satellite and radio picking up signals from the universe? And then, even if we do, whether we recognize it or not, how do we even interpret it? Is there like a algorithm? Is there specific data or programs out there?
Lon Levin:Well, there have been groups like SETI search for extra-interrestrial intelligence, that it still exists I think they were. They go back and forth in their funding and all that. But we do have dedicated scientists who are looking for patterns that would be indicative of intelligent life versus other patterns that we see that are more indicative of non-intelligent and the future.
Daria Hamrah:Just the noise.
Lon Levin:Noise I mean bangs or gravitational changes or whatever else. We see light changes, Big bang, sorry stars exploding, stars imploding, so people do look for it again. It's something called SETI. It's a very scientifically-oriented organization. No reports that I'm aware, and I know people who work there and I guess I would have heard something similar. I mean, I am relatively well connected. I suppose if there was some alienation, I don't think I'd be the one, the first one, to be told about it.
Daria Hamrah:At some point. At some point, you would get a phone call.
Lon Levin:I'd like to thank, but I have no idea who's on those lists then, even if they exist. But I really think that anyone who thinks about this stuff, what I just invite them to do is look at the data, talk with scientists, because I think what they'll enjoy is thinking about these things in a critical way and in a thinking way, and they're wonderful thoughts and they're wonderful thought experiments. I encourage them all and, in fact, what I find, when it comes to people who space business is, there is that what's called romanticism. There is that thrill of maybe being part of either discovery or exploration, or having even human beings move off the planet somewhere else, which is all happening. I mean it's.
Daria Hamrah:Well, I think we get teased all the time in these sci-fi movies. Right, with these sci-fi movies, we all. I think it feeds our fantasy. But the big question I ask myself is if we make any contact, are we going to be prepared and how prepared are we really to handle the situation? If there is, is there like, do we have a team that handles it? How prepared are we really? Or are we just shooting signals into the sky and seeing what sticks and what comes down? But then do we actually have a team? Is there a protocol in place?
Lon Levin:Okay, but with that we don't know.
Lon Levin:We don't know. I think the trouble with If I had to form a team, with being going back to the fundamental thing we're talking about. We really don't know. We don't know which form we're talking about and if somebody is even close and again we are still after these basic questions Is there. Are we alone? Is this the only place where there's life, and let alone life like human beings? And two, where do we even come from? But we're trying to figure that out. I mean, the cool thing about our existence and our abilities is that we are arguably only creatures that can get off this planet, even think about that stuff. There are plenty of other creatures on this planet and I don't think they're thinking about where we come from. And are we alone? Maybe I'm underestimating elephants.
Daria Hamrah:That's a good point yeah.
Lon Levin:I mean, but elephants and dolphins can't build stuff that can go somewhere else. And I think that some extent it's in our nature to keep on doing this and to keep on going into these incredibly hostile environments. Space is so hostile, but yet we can go there. And we have this Artemis project now where we're going to have a lunar base, and once we can do the lunar base, we'll be there for a while. We're going to be in Mars. We're going to be in my lifetime, hopefully in your lifetime, but we're going to go. I'm not much.
Daria Hamrah:I don't know how old you think I am, but I don't think that's for a part.
Lon Levin:But, thank you, you ready to give me a clue about how old you are? We're going to do something in music and all that stuff 1973, that's your clue.
Lon Levin:I'm old now. Anyway, yeah, so I am, I am. I think that they're all not only good questions, they're questions that I'm going to encourage, but I also encourage people to be critical thinkers. I'm exploring it and again, the protocols and all that. There's so many unanswered questions. How would you even do it? It's not like I don't know how we would respond, because we don't know who's going to show up and show us what they are.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, well, I know we're ending nearing the end of our discussion here, but as someone who spent decades in space and satellite, any particular sci-fi movies or books that inspired you throughout your path and helped you fantasize and then I'm a big Star Wars fan, having grown up in the 70s and 80s is there any particular movie that you think is very, most realistic, that could actually happen in the future, and that inspired you?
Lon Levin:or a book. Like realism. First let me tell you it's a great book about entrepreneurship is Moneyball by Michael Lewis.
Daria Hamrah:Michael Lewis.
Lon Levin:Lewis Moneyball they made a movie out of it with Brad Pitt. Oh yeah, I watched that, yeah so, but the book is even better because what it talks about is coming up with a new idea and convincing an incredibly stodgy industry that change was coming. And, by the way, you know what I wish we could talk about a little more, and I mean we can do it.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, well, we can talk about it go ahead. Was that? Because that was my last question is what is there that you feel we should talk about, that we didn't talk about?
Lon Levin:Okay, well, all right. Well, let me first answer the question with the movie or book inspirations and all that. And I think that because I'm inspired by, I think I'm more inspired by entrepreneurship and creating ideas that people want to buy, and that's really what motivates me. So I'm in the space industry. I love it. There's room, a part of it. I don't want to tell you that. I wouldn't be here otherwise. But the other point I mean I was also in the radio and music business when I was in XMedia too, and we're in the communications business and space has so much new technology and all that it's exciting to be in. So I am a space guy. I'm considered a space guy space cadet, music or so and I've had leadership roles throughout the industry. So I'm a space guy.
Lon Levin:But, that being said, I'm really turned on by just creating new ideas and new life. So there's that part. But when it comes to space, I think that it's somewhat cliche, but I'm really constantly inspired by this grand vision that Star Trek presents and that is, we really can work together and get into space and do more and more things, including meet new civilizations and all that. I mean, that's not quite a protocol, but you know, there one protocol is the prime directive that you can't interfere with anybody, because somehow, if we're of that ability to get that far into space, we must have advanced technology as well as into other life, because even if we find that there's life somewhere, it may be less evolved than ours and also we have the sense that there's gotta be greater life in the world and the universe, and maybe I hate to think that we're so advanced, who knows? I mean.
Daria Hamrah:for now we have to consider ourselves more advanced, because we don't know any, like you said, living subjects that could go outside of space, and we have been, I mean.
Lon Levin:Well, imagine that achievement.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, I think that's important, but you said I like that because it gives us a true perspective as opposed to a fictious perspective that we're the dumbest in the universe, that some people have these theories, that there's so many much more smarter lives out there, that they're actually looking down to us and laughing at us for not even finding them, and how stupid we are. I don't think that will help our endeavors. I think we have to give ourselves more credit.
Lon Levin:I am a science fiction geek. I love science fiction, but you ask me, like, what inspires me? It's more like that whole vision of that, our society, which is what it's based on, as opposed to a galaxy long ago, far, far away. Which are great movies too. I love them as well, but I'm a geek. I love all those movies. I'm easy to entertain when it comes to it. So what was your other question? Oh, was whatever we talked about. So what do you want?
Daria Hamrah:to do yeah, anything that we haven't talked about, that you feel we should have talked about.
Lon Levin:You sent me a bunch of questions, can I tell the listeners? You sent me some questions, so and I looked them all and I wrote down the answers to all of them just to get ready. That's how I do it and I do these interviews and let's see you were asking about. Okay, so one of the things I didn't talk about, if I could just touch on it, and that is the. This goes to Moneyball. I'm sure I was shocked when I was getting into the XM business. Here are the car companies that were trying to change themselves. They were relatively independent. They had their models still conservative. I had never seen such conservativeism in any industry and I've been part of other companies that have made a lot of money and they don't want to change in the recording music business. Wow, it was so frightened. I remember these are the days of Napster and the days of the internet, kind of coming.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah.
Lon Levin:And people just downloading music and stealing and all that they were frozen in their tracks. They had no idea what to do. I'm not quite sure they had ever figured out what to do, because others do, like Apple and others and so, and it's because they were so enamored with their old model that they didn't know how to monetize what they had. And these are days when once you sold a record and it was six years old or whatever, you never sold another record again. You know, you gotta keep on. So they had no idea that they could use their catalogs and sell maybe the Beatles or Frank Sinatra or something great like that. Besides that, Sure.
Lon Levin:And they were so worried about us and they're so worried about XM radio and they were loving us together with the internet. But then when I meet with them and I talk to them, like I'm talking with you now, we're having a good high level critical thinking discussion about the world, any topics game, a matter of hoaxes and space, whatever you can talk to them. They were just, they were imperitable because they were so scared. You could just see it. We had no idea how to.
Daria Hamrah:What was the what in you mind now, and Hyde said, was their greatest fear of? I mean, was it that they just didn't want to rock the boat at their conservatism? Was it that they just didn't have the understanding of this technological revolution and see how they can capitalize on it and monetize it? Like which one was it?
Lon Levin:Well, that's a great question and the answer is that when you're dealing with sometimes even the CEO who's just put there, but definitely the middle management people and all that, if they're all making money crescently, they don't want to change this and it's understandable.
Daria Hamrah:So that's like the death sentence of any company, especially today, especially today.
Lon Levin:But you don't see it in the beginning, because making money, you know you can't fault them for hanging on as long as they can to make the last dollar before the world just gets shifted under their feet and so, but that's the antithesis of a CEO and a leader.
Daria Hamrah:Well, based on our conversation, and these are smart people. How does that make?
Lon Levin:sense that's the CEO and or a leader in an entrepreneurial venture. Okay, I think the CEO also in those more established companies has to be that way too. But that CEO has to answer to the people who are getting dividends based on the model that they have created for the last 25 years, and the CEO has to make sure that they're still getting money for them to change. That's a hard thing to do.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, that's you know. We can't be a slave to the shareholders. I mean, that's the thing you know. Look at that we talked about. You know, the bigger the business gets, the more difficult it becomes and the slower they get with innovation. And that's why, you know, look at what happened to Blockbuster. You know there's so many big companies that they thought they're untouchable, almost went out overnight with a new, evolving technology, and I think the ones that can adapt to the fastest and the quickest are the ones that are going to survive. And you have to be willing to evolve. You can't just be caught up in your own ways and just you know and you know what for the shareholders, I mean they would want the same thing. I mean, if I'm a shareholder, some fat for my money invested in a business and a company. I want them to innovate. I don't want them to just stay with the status quo and then just be scared to make a move so they might rock the boat. I mean.
Lon Levin:Both shareholders would agree with you in theory, but everyone is trying to squeeze the last dollar out of the old way you made money. Until the bubble bursts.
Daria Hamrah:Well exactly but then everybody jumpshipped.
Lon Levin:Right. Well, that's what's happened. You know what the good news is? It also allows for entrepreneurs to take advantage of that. Now there are companies that actually are good at shifting, netflix being a very recent and great example. They were selling their CDs, their DVDs you know the mail order thing that they would be blockbuster at. Blockbuster kept on staying with their model. Netflix says uh-uh, streaming's got to be streaming the future. I mean, look what they did. They totally destroyed their old business.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah.
Lon Levin:What's their new business?
Daria Hamrah:And you do that all the power to you. And so how do you think now the streaming radio like Spotify we talked about a little bit earlier several days ago, streaming businesses like Apple has now iTunes, has Spotify, pandora, I mean that has taken a huge chunk out of a traditional radio market, as well as satellite radio, even though satellite radio has some unique programs that are just irreplaceable, like they're like part of our culture. Now you know it's hard to imagine our lives without it, like Howard Stern and stuff like that. But you know how do you see podcasting what we're doing? You know this stuff used to happen over the radio in a shorter format, that affected by music streaming and podcast.
Lon Levin:The first one, podcasting, is an example of this evolution of talk radio, right, yeah, uh-huh, exactly. What's great about podcasting is and this goes to music in general it's how relatively easy and inexpensively qualified people can do it. I mean, I think I don't want to speak to that me too much, but you are as good as anyone. You know who's an interviewer and who's talking. You're intelligent, you're worldly, you know what's going on and you're asking for it. Thank you, you're welcome and so. But I think that there's a lot of that. And then the question that you have as a podcaster, as well as all this new music that's coming up there's one we talked about the other day is how do we sort through that? If someone really wants to learn about XM or really likes, I think if they like you, they're going to hook into.
Lon Levin:I like this guy in the way he interviews, you know. I like the way he edits his programs and all the usable stuff for me. But what about the person seeking XM radio or entrepreneurship or whatever? I mean, how do they find this particular podcast? Well, the same with music.
Lon Levin:There's so much more music out there and I think that one of the challenges for all of these kinds of audio and video both, you know, entertainment and educational. Whatever is, how do we curate? And I think that, yes, there's algorithms where Spotify picks up what you like and they think they're giving you more of that, and I think that's cool, but I don't know that they're being fed all this great music that's being created worldwide, but they're not. And it's more and more music being created because it's so much easier and also it's so much easier to make movies, it's so much easier to make all this different entertainment, podcasts being a type and I think that those who can figure out how to curate, how to sort it, how to bring it to the public.
Lon Levin:I think that's the future, and then the one magical part of it is how do we create these mass opportunities? I get that things are going to be more and more personalized and also they're going to be more and more of the world. There's all these world ideas as well as entertainment throughout the world. We're already seeing it, you know, but I'm really curious where is the next Harry Potter or the next Beatles or the next thing that will be so attractive to the worldwide masses?
Daria Hamrah:And how do we get it to them?
Lon Levin:And now that we are so disparate and fractionalized in our entertainment, how does that happen? I don't know. I don't know, but I think we have, as a species, a need for being similar to Kenexus as well as we want our personal interests to be.
Daria Hamrah:Yeah, I think I don't know if you watched the recent documentary about George Michael, which was a documentary that he was working on when he died and then. So they finally published it, I think last month. And I'm a big music buff and I love music, just like you. I used to play music myself and I still do a little bit. But they asked him, you know, and they talked to him. He actually to your point now, he talked about it and they asked him you know, who's going to be the next big star? And because he was kind of like the last really big star, like Elvis, then the Beatles, then Michael Jackson, then Madonna and then George Michael, and then he said you know what music is getting so fragmented that he said in his final words that he doesn't think there's ever going to be big stars like there had been. And I kind of agree because look how many years we hadn't had that and because it's so fragmented.
Daria Hamrah:And then to the other point that we talked about. You know that there's so much music out right now. It's like how could we possibly find all of that music Right? I mean it's like how do you find a particular fish in the ocean? I mean we couldn't even find it took us I don't know how many days it took us to find the submarine that we knew where it was and we couldn't find it. That's how big the ocean is.
Daria Hamrah:And I look at music the same way you want to find a particular music. It's so much out there now it's almost impossible unless you know the exact title and the artist. So what do you think? Do you think AI, artificial intelligence, is going to have a role in that that? You know, like, for example, chat, gpt we do as a large language model that once it's more connected to the Internet I think now they're connecting it to the Internet can just help us find the music that is that we love and it's in tune with us, and then help us even get us in touch with artists that we never knew, but it's the type of music we like. How do you think AI is going to pay a role into that future?
Lon Levin:I'll give you the example. The answer is I think AI will be part of it. I think marketers and salespeople and also great musicians, obviously. But look, I mean, you can even imagine it today. What if you and 25 people throughout the world ask their chat, gpt or whatever, what is the most popular musical artist today? Or what song, the most popular song that everyone's listening to today? That's a popular artist that's living. Okay, all right, that'd be kind of interesting to ask that question.
Lon Levin:Sure, and assuming it could actually figure it out and accurately I mean, we've got a lot of issues right now in AI but assuming it could do that, then you could start imagining all right, that's a mass artist. There are 70 million people throughout the world who love it. There are 20 million people Wait a second All of Africa loves that. You know what I'm saying? You could start putting pieces together and then, once you do that, you start curating and you could create mass movements. That way I'm imagining it. I don't know. Until you did it, I don't know, I don't think it's true. I think that is a way the AI could do it. So I still just want to go back to my fundamental challenge or point. I do think what we're talking about is one of the next great technical challenges in music and entertainment.
Daria Hamrah:I do.
Lon Levin:It is dying to have mass entertainment. One question is who are the masses talking about? What does mass mean really? Let's assume we can define that. How do you create something that enough people really love that it's its own phenomenon and we've had them. We know it exists, whether it's Beatles or Harry Potter. It can't be worldwide phenomenon.
Daria Hamrah:That always will be to some degree to one or the other. I mean, we're just speaking relative to the past, which is kind of an unfair comparison, because the technology we have today is not the technology we had in the past. I mean, in the past there was several record labels and they selected who the stars are and based on the people's response or the fan base, and that was it the technology today. You can't compare the technology today with the technology of the past. Back then, musicians were signed by record labels and they published things and if they didn't, you wouldn't hear about anything, and if they did, they would make you a star, and that's why I don't think those types of stars will exist, because everybody can publish a song or music on YouTube or Spotify.
Lon Levin:That doesn't explain the Beatles and their amazing dominance.
Daria Hamrah:Well, that's different right. So, that is true art that resonates and electrifies with the masses. I mean that was hysteria.
Lon Levin:Can we have another? I'm sure we.
Daria Hamrah:I think we do, I think we will Okay, but then how does?
Lon Levin:it in a fragmented media environment. That's my question how do you do that in the future?
Daria Hamrah:I understand how we did in the past because there was I don't think it would be such thing as a cross-continent like Elvis or the Beatles, where, whether you were in India, you were in London, in Germany or you were in the US, there's never going to be mass hysteria like that, because how it's fragmented.
Lon Levin:That's what.
Daria Hamrah:I believe Because, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm jumping, okay, continue. Yeah, because I mean I'm looking back, I'm thinking who was the last global music artist star? I mean, if I look at a band, I would say maybe you two, pink Floyd, those were the last ones. No, it was Michael Jackson. As far as the individual stars, michael Jackson, george Michael, madonna, those were the last ones. I mean, who else was after them? As far as globally?
Lon Levin:Right. The reason was because I would argue as you're arguing too because of the fragmented nature of music and entertainment. But what I'm saying is is that I think that there is a need, a human need, or a human desire to be part of something bigger and to enjoy a global thing.
Daria Hamrah:Now my question to you is is that your nostalgia speaking? Or is it just that, as humans who are just evolving, the answer is I don't know.
Lon Levin:I'm truly hypothesizing right there. My hypothesis is that people like to have a mass enjoyment and mass understanding. It's a way that we connect with each other, I agree, and just like we love to be in a concert and everyone's group at the concert, it's well, what about worldwide, if we can enjoy something Right? And so I think that the music business, industry, invention, whatever that gets us there, I think that is somewhat of the future. But that's when you ask me what's the future music? I think, personally, I think that's the future of music that we don't have. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah, Well, anyway, I have other questions. I have questions you asked, but it's up to you if you want to stop.
Daria Hamrah:Well, this was. I could go on for hours, so we might actually do a second episode, because we had so many topics we have, from music to satellite tech, to space. I was trying to just focus on one area, but it's impossible because everything you do has to do with all of the above. But one last question, and I would love to do a second episode to this podcast, but for this podcast I always ask a last question in closing is that what advice? What is your advice based on all your knowledge occurred in the past decades, you would give an entrepreneur that is, a true entrepreneur what advice would you give? Well, let me ask you the question different. What advice would you give yourself if you could go back in time, your own 20-year-old self, who is an aspiring entrepreneur? What advice would you give yourself if you could sit in the time machine, go back and talk to your 20-year-old self?
Lon Levin:I would say to myself that things that I just learned over time. Nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems, but you really cannot predict the future. Don't worry so much and appreciate how much good fortune and luck plays in what's going to happen to you. Be patient with that and when you have your moments of success, cherish them. It's going to be okay. It's like again, it's just never as good or bad as they seem and go to sleep. Go to sleep and then wake up tomorrow and keep on going.
Daria Hamrah:It's going to be okay. That's beautiful, that's the advice I give and that really goes back to the meaning of the word perspective. And I think I just had this discussion with one of my young fellows and I said look, a lot of things that happens to us in life. We don't know how to interpret it at that time. We understand the meaning of it later and I think we're not supposed to understand that that moment, because the fact that we don't understand it gives us this genuine, almost childish curiosity to explore and that's why that's the driving force that moves us forward as young entrepreneurs. And if it wasn't for that, we wouldn't explore with the curiosity, the energy and some sort of naivete that we have and we wouldn't evolve and grow.
Daria Hamrah:And I think, knowing that and I truly believe in what I just said and is that I wouldn't want to talk to my own self from in 40 years with much more perspective, because I feel like first of all, I might not believe what he said, but if I did, I think it would kill my curiosity and it would almost kill my drive. And I think it's just part of how life goes and how it's supposed to be and that's the beauty of life. And I just came to that conclusion not too long ago because I always asked this question to my podcast guest, thinking that, ah, wouldn't be great if we just could go back and talk to our own selves with the knowledge and perspective we have today. But now I think I don't think we're supposed to. We're supposed to know all of this stuff, because that's the very thing that feeds our curiosity. We're supposed to make those mistakes and our ambition and our drive will keep moving us forward, and that's the beauty of every entrepreneurial story.
Lon Levin:Well anyway, well said and I agree.
Daria Hamrah:All right, I hope you enjoyed the conversation with one and only, lon Levin, the co-founder and inventor of XM Radio and Satellite Radio as we know it today, and please stay tuned for another episode in the future with Lon Levin, as we have a lot of things to discuss, all the way from music to sci-fi and entrepreneurship. This was the Dario Hammer podcast, and until next time.